Kiwanis Club of South East Cleveland

blog revival

2009-01-07T23:02:00.002-05:00

Natalie tells me she will be helping revive the blog. It will have its second birthday this coming January 29th.

You can have a total of 100 contributors.

Be well, enjoy.

minutes of the January 30th meeting

2008-02-01T19:16:00.000-05:00

hosting at Holy Name, February 18th, 6:00 PM

2008-02-01T17:43:00.000-05:00

this blog's birthday . . .

2008-01-29T05:28:00.001-05:00

. . . is today. It is 1 year old. We began this experiment in Kiwanis community collaboration January 29, 2007.

Kiwanis Club of South East Cleveland Bulletin January 24, 2008

2008-01-26T02:17:00.001-05:00

Meetings are held each Wednesday at noon at Holy Name Rectory, 8328 Broadway Ave.

(In lieu of last week’s meeting, members Tony, Dave and Ellen, and guests Mike Psenicka and Robin Poole, represented Kiwanis at the Garfield Heights Chamber of Commerce luncheon and heard Mayor Tom Longo’s “State of the City Address.” Kiwanis membership was promoted and over 15 Kiwanis brochures given out to interested parties.)

Minutes of January 23, 2008 meeting

Meeting called to order at 12:15 p.m. by President Ellen. Tom’s guest, Gene Andrews, who had come to give Natalie some insight on a seminar she was in charge of, and Sheba from the Fleet Branch Library were welcomed.

Happy Bucks

Natalie glad all in her family are getting better after bouts of flu, strep, pneumonia, etc. Ione happy no snow fell in front of the church, so she didn’t have to shovel it. Naaman glad to be back to a meeting and for the sunshine. Elmer glad Naaman’s back. Ellen also glad to see the sun and everyone here. Dave had $2 bucks – one that his wife is doing well after having her colon removed, and another for the grandchild that is expected to be born any time now. Tom happy Gene could be with us. Gene for the blessing of still having his wife with him, although she had been very ill.

Club Business

•New member recruitment discussed. Tom said Matthew Coates, manager of the Charter One Bank at E. 57^th and Broadway, is considering membership. He could commit to attend one meeting a month. Tony, Dave and Ellen also did some recruiting last week at the Garfield Heights Chamber of Commerce meeting. Dave put our membership drive in perspective, saying, “We can do and do and do, but it is also important to just “be.” Let us not lose sight of the value of friendship and fellowship.”

•Ione reported that the family we had purchased Christmas presents for was “just thrilled” about everything. Besides the presents, they were given food, coats and University Settlement supplied them all with beds. Sounds like a very, merry Christmas!

•Sheba said the library will be doing a program in April to mark the birthday of Olympic champion Stella Walsh (from Slavic Village) and tying it into the Polish Constitution Day celebration. She said she has to do some research on the life of Stella Walsh, and Dave recommended she contact John Grabowski at the Western Reserve Historical Society.

•On Monday, Feb. 18, our club will be hosting the Division 15 monthly meeting, to be held in Haren Hall at Holy Name, with a good Polish meal catered by Seven Roses. Dinner at 6:30 p.m.; meeting at 7 p.m. Please save the date as we want our club to be well represented. We will devote next week’s meeting, Jan. 30^th, to the nuts and bolts of hosting this event. At the following week’s meeting, Feb. 6^th, we will discuss the upcoming Pancake Breakfast set for April 20^th,also in Haren Hall.

Meeting adjourned at 12:40 p.m., followed by monthly board meeting.

UPCOMING EVENT – Monday, February 18, “President’s Day” – SE Club to host Division 15 meeting in Haren Hall, 6:30 p.m. dinner; 7 p.m. meeting. All hands on board!!!

Kiwanis Club of South East Cleveland Bulletin January 10, 2008

2008-01-10T17:21:00.001-05:00

Meetings are held each Wednesday at noon at Holy Name Rectory, 8328 Broadway Ave.

(Last meeting of the year was December 19^th at Seven Roses Deli on Fleet Ave. Present for some fine food and holiday fellowship were: Tony, Tom, Elmer, Ellen, Marie, Natalie, Ione, Barb, and guests Georgia & Dennis and Tony’s wife, Gail.)

Minutes of January 9, 2008 meeting

An informal meeting (sans Happy Bucks) was held, as only four members were present: Tom, Barb, Ellen and Natalie. Although few in numbers, several items of note took place.

•Tom Igo Scholarship applications, along with a cover letter to be drafted by Barb, will be distributed to members of the South High School Key Club no later than March 1. Students have until May 1 to get their scholarship applications in.

•This month’s board meeting will be held on Wednesday, Jan. 23. Anyone with items to be put on the agenda should contact Ellen beforehand.

•Next month’s board meeting will be held on Wednesday, Feb. 13.

•The South East Club is hosting next month’s Division 15 meeting on Monday, Feb. 18 (which also happens to be President’s Day). Tom and Ellen will talk to Tina at Seven Roses about catering the dinner “Polish-style.”

•In lieu of our regular meeting next Wednesday, it was decided that members attend the Garfield Heights Chamber of Commerce meeting that same day, January 16^th, to network with business leaders there and distribute Kiwanis brochures to promote membership growth. Garfield Heights Mayor Thomas J. Longo will be the featured speaker at the meeting, giving his annual “State of the City” address. The event will be held at the Knights of Columbus Hall & Pazzo’s Catering, 10808 Granger Rd., Garfield Hts., from 11:30 a.m. to 1 p.m. $12.00 per person includes a luncheon buffet. Ellen will prepay for a table, so those attending should pay her. Please RSVP to Ellen by Monday, Jan. 14, if planning to attend.

•Barb and Tom will be speaking (separately) to other area Kiwanis Clubs this month. Tom and Emily Lee will speak to the Wellington Kiwanis Club on Thursday, Jan. 17, at a building (Tom doesn’t know the name of it) on the southwest corner of Rts. 58 & 18. Call Tom for more details. Barb will speak to the Brecksville Kiwanis Club on Thursday, Jan. 31, at the Methodist Church at Rts. 82 and 21. Dinner 6:15 p.m.; program 7:15 p.m. Call Barb for more details.

UPCOMING EVENTS

Wednesday, Jan. 16 – No regular meeting at Holy Name. Members will instead attend the Garfield Hts. Chamber of Commerce meeting from 11:30 a.m. to 1 p.m. at the Knights of Columbus Hall, 10808 Granger Rd., Garfield Hts., next Wednesday, January 16. Cost: $12. RSVP to Ellen by Monday, Jan. 14. Mayor to give his annual “State of the City” address.

Monday, Jan. 14 – Division 15 meeting at Garfield Memorial Church, 3650 Lander Rd., at Chagrin. Supper 6:30 p.m.; meeting 7 p.m. RSVP for supper by Thursday, Jan. 10, to John Driscoll at 216-765-8870 or 216-333-5865.

Wednesday, Jan. 23 – Regular meeting followed by monthly board meeting at Holy Name.

Big Tom meets the Big Pumpkin

2007-09-24T13:41:00.000-04:00

Hi Ellen,

Tom asked that I forward this Pumpkin Picture (big Pumpkin Picture) to you, Elmer and Dennis..... I don't have their e-mail addresses so will you please forward to them when you have a minute?....I tried to print the picture but could not do on my home computer. You may have more luck.....Let me know.

Thanks,

Pat & Tom

opting out, or opting in?

2007-09-20T09:59:00.000-04:00

Dear Friends,

At our recent convention, the decision was made to allow members who wish to do so to elect to receive their Ohio Kiwanis Magazine in electronic format only. The attached form is printed in the latest Ohio Kiwanis Magazine. If you could just bring this to the attention of your clubs and members at your next division council meeting, it would be very much appreciated.

Dave Whiteman
District Secretary
Ohio District of Kiwanis International

(click on image to print "opt-out" form)

"Kiwanis is a global organization of volunteers dedicated to changing the world one child and one community at a time."

generativity

2007-09-15T07:23:00.000-04:00

There's a fairly new book out by one of our local luminaries, Stephen Post, in which he talks about the concept of "generativity" as one of the elements that elevates the level of play in the community. One quote that made me think of Kiwanis, and Key Club in particular, was this, on page 49:

Generativity predicts that we will be successful. It has a positive
impact that is not related to social class, IQ, or religiousness. However, teens
who are highly generative tend to end up in a higher social class.

minutes of the September 12th meeting

2007-09-14T20:26:00.000-04:00

Hello all,

Attached is your latest Kiwanis bulletin. Please note that dinner reservations for the Division 15 meeting this month need to be in by this Monday. Call or email me if you're going. Also, I talked to Bob about his Past President's Party, and it's set for Wednesday, Oct. 17, at 6 p.m., so save the date. He wants to go to Harry's Steakhouse again, so I have to confirm that. Have a great weekend!

Ellen

minutes of the September 5th meeting

2007-09-12T09:04:00.000-04:00

Hello fellow Kiwanians!

Attached is your latest Kiwanis bulletin. Marie asks that all of us who can please attend the press conference today [09/06/2007] on the steps of St. Hyacinth Church at 5 p.m. to show support for the SVD initiatives in the wake of the killing of the little girl there last weekend.

Ellen

lots of presenting going on around these parts

2007-06-23T07:24:00.000-04:00

Hello all,

Attached is your latest Kiwanis bulletin and photos from last week's check presentation to Emily Lee of the American Lung Assn. of Ohio, and her award presentation to Tom and t-shirt presentation to Naaman. Lots of "presenting" last week at Holy Name! Don't forget - meeting next week at noon at McDonald's at Broadway and Union, followed by short walk along Morgana Run Trail. Have a great weekend!

Ellen

minutes for the past 2 weeks

2007-06-23T07:20:00.000-04:00

Minutes for June 13th and for June 20th meetings. Click to enlarge or to print images.

minutes of the June 6th meeting

2007-06-07T23:03:00.000-04:00

Click on image to enlarge it. See you all for spaghetti tomorrow.

more meeting minutes from Ellen, last two weeks in May

2007-05-31T23:24:00.000-04:00

Click on image to enlarge it.

get all you can eat on Spaghetti Friday, June 8th, lunch and dinner

2007-05-18T03:01:00.000-04:00

meeting minutes from Ellen, May 9th and 16th

2007-05-17T15:55:00.001-04:00

South East Kiwanis Broadway Clean Sweep Rated a Success

2007-05-12T18:23:00.000-04:00

Sweepers, rakers,shovelers and hosers alike said that this year's cleanup made the street sparkle.

Trash to the left of us, trash to the right of us and trash straight ahead blown in by the pesky Northwest wind, but we prevailed. Georgia said that almost fifty people came to help. Cleveland's finest particpated as well stopping by and watching the traffic patterns so all of us felt safer sweeping along the street and sidewalk. No, Dennis, they didn't come for just the coffee and donuts. Besides, I thought they stopped by to thank you and Georgia for being their staunch supporters while we still await the fate of the Third District.

My crew cleaned up the East 55th side of Broadway by the Library. Ludwig from Hubcap Heaven swept the entire corner from one end to the other. He sure helped that corner of East 55th and Broadway look spic and span. We pulled weeds, we picked up trash in stairwells that sat there for months, but when we finally were ready to sweep those library steps we knew we had accomplished a good thing. Robin should be so proud of her kids. They are good workers. Thanks, Angel, Tre or Gray ( my ears just aren't what they once were), and Chris.

Dr. John Skrha, the founder of Broadway Clean Sweep, settled in to oversee the event with his photographer wife, Bets and his daughter Betsey. I didn't get a chance to ask him but I think he was quite proud that we all carry on the tradition. A plus this year was the wonderful music that poured out of the windows of the Broadway School of Music. I don't know who plays that saxophone but they are quite talented as many of the other musicians who serenaded us were.

Barbara and her crew would have been out there too but they are preparing for a recital to be held on Monday May 14th. Call the school at 216-641-0630 for details.

Georgia had everything under control getting people to sign in, giving them spots to clean, and generally, seeing that the event moved forward. Councilman Tony Brancatelli and Councilwoman Phyllis Cleveland came on over and I am not sure where they pushed their brooms but I am sure that Georgia pressed them into service.

Tom McLeary and his able assistant, Louise provided the whole gang with hot dogs, chips and lemonade. My friend Christine served as an informational assistant urging people to have another hot dog but don't take too many chips because there was a finite amount. Dennis and Dave took there crew down the street with the fire hose and hosed Broadway down so that the dust was corralled for one day. Mittal Steel sent their street sweeper to finish the job. All in all, the work crews should get a standing ovation and a Bravo! for a job well done.

And, as Jerry Seppelt, our District Governor said as he fixed one more hot dog for the road. "I'm outta here before Dennis and Georgia find something else for me to do. See you all next year!"

Thanks to Tim Ferris on Kiwanis blogging

2007-05-10T15:05:00.001-04:00

The South East Cleveland Kiwanis Club is indebted to Tim Ferris for encouraging our members to use this fine communication tool.

CATS meeting

2007-05-02T14:28:00.000-04:00

Tim as usual you did a super job of explaining bloging etc to our club. As always it was great breaking bread with you .

Kiwanis at Cats: Blogs and The Cleansweep

2007-05-02T12:48:00.000-04:00

We are all at CATS using our Kiwanis blog--you can edit anything--stay tuned for more details of the clean sweep 05/12/2007.

Above is the handbill:

Blogging for Kiwanians

2007-05-02T10:58:00.000-04:00

This is a brief outline of my talk being delivered to the Kiwanis Club of South East Cleveland at noon on May 2, 2007.

I. Our beginnings--Business Week 05/02/2007 issue on how "Blogs will change your business"--
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_18/b3931001_mz001.htm
I didn't know what they were, but I knew that in Gloria's political campaign, we had to have one.

II. Our SE Kiwanis presence: http://southeastkiwanis.blogspot.com--we are in a rarefied atmosphere still, at this point--very few Kiwanis blogs across the country--try a Google search for "Kiwanis blog" and see what you get--
III. How things work, so that you can be a contrubuting collaborator, too--I send an invitation--you accept--you may have to open a Google or Gmail account, but just follow the instructions--if the acceptance registers, your name appears with the others in the right sidebar--start by commenting--then try posting your own original material--then try links--then try uploading an image--don't forget the labels, or tags
IV. Questions, comments, ideas

Pancake Breakfast Pictures of 4/22/07

2007-04-23T08:45:00.000-04:00

http://picasaweb.google.com/ellinohio/KiwanisPancakeBreakfast

the Swiss and weapons per capita

2007-04-05T15:22:00.000-04:00

Yesterday, I mentioned how the Swiss who serve militia duty are issued an assault rifle which many of them keep in their home, and how Switzerland is one of the safest places in the world even though it has more firearms per capita than just about any other place in the world. I got this tidbit from the book Freakonomics by Steven D. Levitt, on page 131. (I had misattributed this to James Surowiecki and The Wisdom of Crowds, which I read about the same time.)

All this was as a followup to Elmer's wanting us all to be sure to read Feagler's Wednesday piece on punks and guns and the Fleet area (I don't want to call it Slavic Village any more.). In case you missed it, you can read it here.

April 4th Speaker's Program for SouthEast Kiwanis

2007-04-03T19:48:00.000-04:00

Thanks to Tom McLeary, our twice monthly speaker series continues at Southeast Kiwanis. Tomorrow our speakers will be Emily Lee from the American Lung Association of Ohio and Linda Kimble, Project Coordinator of the Cleveland Clean Air Century Campaign. These ladies will speak to us about their organizations and talk about a fundraiser for the asthma initiative on June 25th.

Tom is hoping that we can help these lovely ladies with their fundraising goals and they are going to tell us how. Sounds like this is one of those projects that is just down our alley, folks.

We will hold our meeting in the dining room at Holy Name Parish located at 8328 Broadway Avenue thanks to the generosity of Father Tom O'Donnell.

The meeting begins at Noon. Lunch will provided.

latest Kiwanis bulletin and change of president

2007-04-01T17:23:00.000-04:00

I got this by email a few days ago--

Hello all,

Attached is your latest Kiwanis bulletin. Olga, after speaking with Dave and Barb after today's meeting, has stepped down from her role as president of our club . . .. Bob Deskins, as vice president of the club, will assume the position of president for the remainder of Olga's term . . .. See you next week!

Ellen

Reminder for Wednesday, March 7th: Kickoff of the 2007 SE Kiwanis Speaker Series

2007-03-05T08:52:00.000-05:00

I sent this email out earlier today:

I just wanted to remind you that we have speakers (Jerry Seppelt, Lieutenant Governor of Kiwanis, and Rich Weiss, Assistant Director of The Cleveland Ingenuity Festival 2007) scheduled for this coming Wednesday, March 7th, at noon for the Kiwanis Club of South East Cleveland. This is the first presentation of the SE Kiwanis 2007 Speaker Series. Keep updated on future speakers at our blogsite, http://southeastkiwanis.blogspot.com/. Our intention is to have a speaker on the first and the third Wednesday of each month.

Please note that we will have a light lunch brought in.

Also, we are moving the meeting across the street, from Holy Name Rectory to CATS, to accommodate serving the lunch and seating a few more people than we usually do. Parking is still available at Holy Name (8328 Broadway), as usual, and the CATS address is--

Community Assessment & Treatment Services, Inc.
8415 Broadway Avenue
Cleveland, OH 44105

It would be good if each of you could RSVP to Ellen Psenicka (NNEWS1923@aol.com or 216-441-2141) today so she can have a head-count before she orders the lunch tray.

Thanks.

Ellen, Gloria and I will be there.

Here's another option for responding, from my prior post:

If you are planning on attending, please indicate that here on the Upcoming.org site and also confirm your reservations with Gloria at 216-351-0254 by Tuesday, March 6th, at noon.

Kiwanis, Key Clubs, and The Ingenuity Festival

2007-02-09T14:18:00.000-05:00

Upcoming.org: Kiwanis meets Ingenuity at Holy Name Church and Rectory (Wednesday, March 7, 2007)
Click on the link for the map and to indicate whether you'll be attending, bringing a guest, or just watching. This is the first scheduled speaker of the 2007 series. The event:

Speakers at the Kiwanis Club of South East Cleveland are Jerry Seppelt, Kiwanis Division 15 lieutenant governor, and Rich Weiss, assistant director of The 2007 Ingenuity Festival (http://www.ingenuitycleveland.com/). They will outline the new synergies being formed between the Kiwanis Key Clubs (high-school groups) and the Festival, taking community service to the next level. If you are planning on attending, please indicate that here on the Upcoming.org site and also confirm your reservations with Gloria at 216-351-0254 by Tuesday, March 6th, at noon.

Tony Brancatelli gets press in last Saturday's Wall Street Journal

2007-02-07T21:37:00.000-05:00

In Billboard War, Digital Signs Spark a Truce - WSJ.com --I just got this article about Tony Brancatelli, one of our club members, from Ellen Psenicka, another club member, over at the Neighborhood News. You can read the entire article by clicking the lead-in to this paragraph, but here's an excerpt:

One of Cleveland's longtime billboard foes is community activist Tony Brancatelli, 49. He has worked most of his life to clean up his working-class neighborhood of Slavic Village, plagued by boarded-up buildings and suburban flight. One big goal: tearing down the billboards littering Broadway, a major local artery.

For years, he tried to help property owners find a way to nullify their billboard contracts, which sometimes had decades-long terms. That often meant sparring with executives working for billboard concern Eller Media. The contracts usually held. When Clear Channel acquired Eller in 1997, Mr. Brancatelli feared the acquisition would only make his adversaries more formidable.

Two years later, in February 1999, the company took the city of Cleveland to court twice. First it challenged a city ordinance banning alcohol advertising, and then it accused Cleveland of unfairly targeting its billboards in a city inspection that cited hundreds of boards for code violations.
The city lost the first case. A settlement in the second case, among other things, created legislation allowing digital boards. Like traditional boards, each new digital board had to first be approved by city government.

Mr. Brancatelli's worst tussle with Clear Channel came in 2001. He says he and his lawyer repeatedly asked Clear Channel to take down a billboard that was blocking construction of a Boys & Girls Club. Under the original contract, the billboard could be removed if construction was planned on the land where it stood. Mr. Brancatelli says company representatives spent months dithering and kept demanding a new location to put up a new board, even though the contract made no provision for a replacement.

Clear Channel says Slavic Village misinterpreted the contract.

Fed up, Mr. Brancatelli headed to the billboard, grabbed a saw and attacked, say people familiar with the matter. With construction equipment idling just feet away, Mr. Brancatelli sawed at the metal pins holding the board in place until it collapsed, these people say. "I will never admit to taking down a billboard," Mr. Brancatelli now says. "I will admit to evicting them off our real estate."
Clear Channel says it has worked with Mr. Brancatelli in the past, donating billboard space over the years to Slavic Village as well as other Cleveland groups.

A few years passed. Then Clear Channel wanted to put up a digital board in an area bordering Slavic Village. In contrast to prior encounters, Clear Channel officials approached Slavic Village leaders eagerly, behaving as if the head-butting hadn't happened. "It was very clear they wanted to deal," Mr. Brancatelli says.

Clear Channel's president of outdoor ads in Cleveland, Bill Platko, recalls telling local billboard foes: "We have an opportunity where we both can win."

In January 2005, Slavic Village and other Cleveland neighborhood officials began elaborate discussions with Clear Channel. To put up a digital board, Clear Channel proposed to take two traditional boards down, as city law requires.

The community leaders knew digital billboards are very profitable. Marlane Weslian, Slavic Village's development officer, reasoned that adding one board represented a vast expansion of advertising in the neighborhood. By rotating an ad through every eight seconds, Clear Channel could have over seven advertisers a minute on that board.

The neighborhood groups asked for 25 traditional boards to come down, including boards on busy roads. Clear Channel balked.

By March, a compromise was reached. For Clear Channel to get its digital board, five traditional boards would come down on major roads in Slavic Village, and five more in other city areas. Clear Channel cut similar deals in three other parts of Cleveland.

The compromise allows Slavic Village to claim victory. Mr. Brancatelli says the Clear Channel negotiations were a "tipping point" that has bettered his relationship with the company. Another city councilman, Joe Cimperman, adds that when Clear Channel approaches the city now, they "don't cue up the music to Darth Vader."

The compromise is a win for Clear Channel, too. Because the advertiser shares the board with others, the rates for a digital display run slightly under the $8,000 to $10,000 per month that Clear Channel would typically charge for a highwayside billboard in Cleveland, says a spokesman. But now the company collects revenue from seven companies instead of one.

Today, the company has seven digital billboards up in the Cleveland area, including three outside city limits. They blink through a steady stream of advertisements for clients ranging from a Fox TV affiliate to a local Ford dealer. The pictures come up slide-show style, with no animation or video, and flip over to a new advertiser every eight seconds.

To further court its critics, Clear Channel recently expanded programs that donate free billboard space for Cleveland's nonprofits. In December, it launched a new program that allows city officials to take control of the boards and put up so-called Amber Alerts, which alert the public to possible child abductions.

Amber Alert "changes the dynamics of the relationship" with Cleveland," says Clear Channel's Mr. Mays. "It's billboards used in a way that meshes with our strategic goals," adds Bob Brown, director of Cleveland's planning department.

minutes of the meeting held January 31st

2007-02-01T21:49:00.000-05:00

minutes of the meetings held January 17th and January 24th

2007-01-30T10:52:00.000-05:00

Just click on each page of the minutes to make it bigger...

Planning for Our Annual Pancake Breakfast

2007-01-30T10:20:00.000-05:00

At last week's meeting, we discussed the need for planning our Annual Pancake Breakfast. When Tim and I attended the District 15 meeting the week before, we noticed that almost every Kiwanis Club was planning a Pancake Breakfast for March or April. Lt. Governor Jerry Seppelt suggested we all try to support each other's Pancake Breakfasts. I suggested two things to Tim as we drove home-one, if we supported everyone's Pancake Breakfast we would probably gain ten pounds and, by the time our Pancake Breakfast came around we would be very tired of pancakes.

When I shared these observations with the club, my fears were calmed because, true to form, the South East Kiwanis Pancake Breakfast is "More than a Pancake Breakfast" because we serve french toast as well. I am sorry that Tim and I won't be there to help plan the breakfast since we travel to Columbus the last Wednesday of every month, but we will be there to help out the day of the breakfast.

I made Dennis promise not to volunteer Tim and me for too many tasks, but he just chuckled in that way he has. Should I be worried?

precedents

2007-01-29T22:23:00.000-05:00

There are some precedents to which we should be paying attention as we take our new blogsite forward; here is a sampling of what others have been doing lately:

here we go!

2007-01-29T20:12:00.000-05:00

This is the first post of the new blogsite of the members of the Kiwanis Club of South East Cleveland. Every member has the privilege of sharing publishing rights on this blog. This blog will be self-organizing in the best traditions of open-space technology. I will not presume to have the standing to lecture any of my fellow Kiwanis members on deportment or blog conduct. You know the drill; the same rules of civility and gentility apply here as in our club.